Notre Dame de Paris

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 04/16/2019 at 11:41 • Filed to: notre dame

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Inside the nave, as the wooden roof burned. At least one of the vaults collapsed, but it seems that the majority of the stone structure is sound. The NYT ran a very interesting piece this morning about the history of the cathedral, and about how much it has changed in 900 years since it was first laid down. It puts yesterday’s fire into some context. Over all those centuries, the cathedral was constantly remade, and now it will be remade again. Hopefully, with sprinklers.

With all the turmoil in France right now, perhaps this is a fire they needed, if not one they wanted.

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CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 11:51

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Sprinklers are a mixed bag. The water damage from a deluge system that would be installed in a building like that would be devastating . Goodbye art and organ.

vondon302 > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 11:54

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I’m still kinda shocked it’s not worse.

Watching it live yesterday. I thought it would be a empty shell.

ttyymmnn > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 04/16/2019 at 11:54

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I had a rehearsal for Easter yesterday, and there was a lot of talk about the fire. The organist said that the organ in ND is a rather poor 19th-century instrument and its loss would be no great tragedy.

How would a sprinkler system in a wooden roof space be worse than the millions of gallons of the River Seine that they poured into the church yesterday?

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 11:54

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Two French i cons that will never die

Also a good Twitter thread on why so much survived

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ttyymmnn > vondon302 04/16/2019 at 11:55

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Me too. But even an empty shell can be rebuilt. One of the Louis kings had the entire inside gutted and redone. So maybe it’s time for another do-over? 

facw > vondon302 04/16/2019 at 11:55

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Th os e French masons did a good job with the vault apparently. Strong enough to support the collapsing roof in most places.

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 04/16/2019 at 11:56

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MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 11:59

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I’m pretty sure if you took the above picture back in time it would have been added to/printed in the bible as the definition of what the apocalypse would look like. Slip a horseman into the foreground an it’s done.  

In all seriousness, this sucked to watch yesterday. My whole team was crowded around my computer watching it. It’s awesome the amount of funds that have already been pledged towards the renovation/repairs though. It’s in better shape than I thought it would be.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 11:59

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Well, a deluge/sprinkler would likely not have helped in this scenario for one. The fire was on the roof. Which would have been above sprinklers.

I get what your saying, and can’t comment on this instance for sure

But if you put in a deluge system, the risk of it going off for a minor fire or by accident gets introduced. The systems are usually double triggered with a “fire eye” camera and/or heat sensor. Accidental triggers do happen. Candles , sunlight or any number of other events can trigger a loss.

I had a HUGE loss in Vancouver at our main library branch after their deluge system went off in the atrium (pictured below).

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 12:03

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Only a king can do that, so we would have to make Emmanuel Macron king.

facw > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 04/16/2019 at 12:05

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I was reading a little blurb about fire safety saying that you generally focus on prevention, detection, evacuation, compartmentalization , suppression and endurance.

He claimed the only real thing in place here was prevention, which of course failed.

Detection seems like a no brainer, and if it’s true they didn’t have anything in place, I’d consider that a huge oversight, and I’m sure one that will be corrected in any new construction.

Evacuation is not really going to happen, as they can’t build new stairways without compromising the building’s aesthetics. Maybe they can make some improvements on the margins. Luckily, people generally shouldn’t be up there to evacuate.  

It’s not clear to what extent you can compartmentalize a roof , but it seems like building firewalls in the under roof space would be doable at least.

As you say suppression could create a real mess depending on how they do it, but even then, because the fire couldn’t be put out right away they had to dump way more water on the building. I don’t know how they do this in museums, etc.

Endurance presumably can be addressed with material choices, though I’d imagine they will try to rebuild with wood for historical consistency, even though metal would hold up better, be less flammable , and would be invisible to visitors of the cathedral.

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 12:09

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I was worried the heat from the fire would destroy much of the stonework as well. 

DipodomysDeserti > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 04/16/2019 at 12:12

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Our main library was closed for a year because of a faulty deluge system. Dust from a monsoon triggered the system, and then a badly corroded main water line burst. Turns out employees and the fire martial knew about it fir almost a decade, but never fixed  it.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > DipodomysDeserti 04/16/2019 at 12:15

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In my claim (don’t want to speak to much about the details) the system was triggered by a movie filming.  The system gives a 5 minute countdown before firing, but nobody there at the time knew how to stop it.

ranwhenparked > For Sweden 04/16/2019 at 12:15

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Could always ask the Count of Paris if he wants the job.

DipodomysDeserti > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 04/16/2019 at 12:17

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Charlemagne has your horseman covered.

For Sweden > ranwhenparked 04/16/2019 at 12:18

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I think Emmanuel is a better fit tbh

ttyymmnn > DipodomysDeserti 04/16/2019 at 12:52

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Thomas Donohue > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 13:05

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Sprinkler systems and fine art don’t go together very well. An effective fire suppression system for a structure like that is quite a tall order, no pun intended.

Good to see the hundreds of millions being already donated to start the reconstruction, though part of me wonders how much of that money could have been donated to the planned renovations in the first place, and if perhaps a better-funded reno project would not have resulted in a fire.

*I don’t know how much was donated previously, nor the quality of the renovations taking place....but I wonder how low the lowest bidder was.

Cé hé sin > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 13:08

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That (about the organ) is literally half true. ND de P aris has like many cathedrals a main and a choir organ, the latter used for e veryday events. I read about the condition of these ear lier. One of the organists w as allowed this morning to go into the north transept where the originally 15th century main orga n lives and he reported th at it seems intact although he couldn’t tell if soot or debris had fallen into the 8,000 odd pipes. It hasn’t had water damage. He said that they’ll now have to either remove it pending repairs to the building or cover it for protection (in which case it’ll have to be played occasionally as they don’t like sitting there unused). The choir organ which is indeed 19th century is structurally intact but has taken a lot of water.

ttyymmnn > Thomas Donohue 04/16/2019 at 13:11

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Nothing like a tragedy to get the wallets out. But as you suggest, it’s too bad these people didn’t step up before. I will be interested to see how they rebuild the roof. Certainly not with 400-year-old timbers. I read an article yesterday that quoted a NYC fire inspector. He said that if these ancient cathedrals weren’t places of worship, they would be condemned as fire traps. 

Looks much like the setting for the final scene at Hogwart’s.

Here’s a little bit more perspective on the age of the wood:

To kick off the project, workers cleared 21 hectares of oak. Each beam of the intricate wooden cross-work was drawn from a different tree: estimated at 13,000 trees in total. To reach the heights the carpenters needed to build the structure, those trees would likely have been 300 or 400 years old, meaning they would have sprouted out of the ground in the eighth or ninth centuries. ( CNN )

Thomas Donohue > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 13:26

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So, you’re saying it was dry?   

7:07 > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 14:46

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The organist said that the organ in ND is a rather poor 19th-century instrument and its loss would be no great tragedy.

Maybe he doesn’t favor French organ music or improvisations, but this is a naive statement to me. The N.D. organ has been changed over the years, and while it is still a Cavaille-Coll at heart, it may not be an original one like in St. Sulpice. It is still very much an historic and important instrument. Its loss would be an absolute tragedy .

ttyymmnn > 7:07 04/16/2019 at 14:51

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He did say, “At least it wasn’t the St. Sulpice organ.” I imagine every organist has his or opinions about instruments. My father is an organist, and he was known to diss an organ in his day. And, I think he was talking more about the instrument than the music itself, but I see what you are saying. 

ttyymmnn > Thomas Donohue 04/16/2019 at 15:43

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Let’s say “well seasoned.”

ranwhenparked > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 20:00

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They’re going to have a lot of trouble finding equivalent sized timbers, to put it mildly. Even if they import a lot from North America, it isn’t like you can just easily buy 13,000 400-year old trees. I suppose they’re going to have to go to LVLs for a lot of it now. 

ttyymmnn > ranwhenparked 04/16/2019 at 22:57

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It seems to me that some sort of metal solution should be put in place. Sure, it’s not original, but so much of that church has been remade in the last 500 years, it shouldn’t matter too much.